[Xenophon] Conversation with Paul Cartledge regarding Alcibiades

[James Janicki]

I feel an Alcibiades debate coming on for our next Xenophon call.

I think Alcibiades was uniquely competent as a leader in war and suffered from too much boustrous candor like Churchill and Patton, and like Chruchill he was mistrusted and fell to great lows in his political position.  Also, like Churchill, he was put into the role he was best suited for to lead the war effort for Athens when they needed him most.  I think he was totally railroaded in Athens when his political assasins got the better of him before the Sicily expedition.  I think he was always loyal to Athens and went to Sparta only when Athens left him no other choice and until the corruption at Athens was overcome enough for him to return to the home he loved.  His battles against Athens were against the corrupt leaders and never really meant to result in a Spartan victory, so he was just using Sparta as a platform to clean up Athens for his return.  He saw his time with Sparta as a type of exile but he was too large of a character to fade away.  Remember that Thucydides was formally exiled and went to Sparta and we didn't call him a traitor.  Remember that Alcibiades could have stayed in Athens to handle the politics instead of ignoring the politics and going to war in Sicily at the orders of Athens.  This was a personal sacrifice to Athens, but not the corruption in the leadership at Athens at that time.  I think this shows his dedication to the State of Athens and Alcibiades didn't recognize the leadership of Athens at that time as being the same as Athens itself.  I also think he was a loud, over-zealous, and agitating personality who annoyed people easily because he spoke his mind unfiltered, often, and with an audience.  This reminds me of when Churchill would switch parties often from Tories to Labour because he was focused on individual needs that he thought were right for his country and all those needs weren't always in the same political party.  That's why neither party trusted Churchill for most of his political career.  I don't think Alcibiades was lovable and I think we would have a hard time feeling sorry for his tribulations because they were self induced to a large extent.  He lived large.  I think we would have a much different view of Alcibiades if he had survived long enough to write his memoirs, much like Churchill did.  Also, Athens would have done much better if Alcibiades had been given more time to prosecute the war effort.  I think Athens would have given him more time to lead the war effort of Alcibiades had controlled his big mouth, much like what happened with Patton with his comments about the Russians, which made him politically unpopular for any cooperative command across the Allies in WW2.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
>From: Phil Terry <pterry at creativegood.com>
>Sent: Jan 21, 2010 1:27 PM
>To: "Alexander J. Wei" <alexanderjwei at earthlink.net>
>Cc: xenophon2010 at readingodyssey.org
>Subject: Re: [Xenophon] Conversation with Paul Cartledge regarding Alcibiades
>
>Alexander,
>
>Quite right - the controversy continues. I did ask Bob the same  
>question and he had a similar answer to Paul.
>
>Phil
>
>On Jan 20, 2010, at 11:48 AM, Alexander J. Wei wrote:
>
>> Dear Phil:
>>
>> Thank you so much for sharing your conversation about Alcibiades.  I  
>> believe we touched on him in our talk with Bob Strassler as well.  I  
>> even remember first hearing about him from a Social Studies teacher  
>> in middle school.  I doubt controversy over him will ever die.
>>
>> Alex
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Phil Terry <pterry at creativegood.com>
>>> Sent: Jan 19, 2010 6:15 PM
>>> To: xenophon2010 at readingodyssey.org
>>> Subject: [Xenophon] Conversation with Paul Cartledge regarding  
>>> Alcibiades
>>>
>>> Hey folks,
>>>
>>> I thought you would find this recent conversation I had with  
>>> Professor
>>> Paul Cartledge interesting. Paul is the A.G. Leventis Chair of  
>>> Ancient
>>> Greek Culture at Cambridge and one of the most well-respected
>>> classcists in the world. He's also a board member of the Reading
>>> Odyssey.
>>>
>>> I decided to ask Paul about Alcibiades and the difference between the
>>> way Thucydides portrays him and the way David Thomas, the writer of
>>> the Introduction to our edition of Xenophon's Hellenika, describes  
>>> him.
>>>
>>> Some of Paul's answers require knowledge of the Athenian Wars (or the
>>> Peloponnesian Wars as the Athenians called them). But, the basic gist
>>> is understandable whether you have read Thucydides or not. Please  
>>> keep
>>> this exchange confidential.
>>>
>>> -- -- --
>>>
>>> Phil: What's your opinion of Alcibiades? David Thomas seems to take a
>>> much friendlier attitude towards Alcibiades in his introduction to
>>> Xenophon's Hellenika. His perspective seems quite a contrast to
>>> Thucydides' point-of-view on him.
>>>
>>> Prof Cartledge: I'm with Thucydides - who at one point virtually
>>> blames him altogether for leading Athens to defeat against Sparta,  
>>> but
>>> at another point does say that - for once - he did do at least
>>> something good for Athens (in 411 when he persuaded the Athenian  
>>> fleet
>>> NOT to sail back from Samos to Athens to resist the anti-democratic
>>> coup[1])!
>>>
>>> Phil: Why do you think David suggests Alcibiades' expulsion from
>>> Syracuse is the main reason for the defeat of that ill-planned
>>> expedition?
>>>
>>> Prof Cartledge: Alcibiades was the most gifted general of his day -
>>> BUT his posturing on Syracuse was ill-informed and excessive and  
>>> self-
>>> promoting, and though Nicias was unduly cautious, he was right to be
>>> cautious, whereas Alcibiades in 416/5 had talked gaily of - after
>>> conquering Sicily (all of it) - going on to conquer
>>> Carthage...Hyberbole! It was party politics that got him recalled  
>>> from
>>> Sicily but i. victory there was by no means certain even so and ii.
>>> even a false accustaion does not justify outright treason (going over
>>> to Sparta)! P
>>>
>>> -- -- --
>>>
>>> Hope you are enjoying your reading of Xenophon's Hellenika. Send
>>> questions or thoughts out over e-mail!
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] When Paul refers positively to Alcibiades' role in preventing the
>>> fleet from sailing back to Athens to support the coup against the  
>>> anti-
>>> democrats, he's saying so *not* because he (paul) supports the
>>> oligarchs but because that rash move would have left the Hellespont
>>> completely open to the Spartans and been quite a mistake in the war -
>>> it would have really hurt Athens to have done that no matter who was
>>> in charge back at home.
>>>
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>>
>
>
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