[Xenophon] Conversation with Paul Cartledge regarding Alcibiades

Fri Jan 22 03:48:09 UTC 2010

Sounds good, safe travels

----- Original Message -----
From: wwilliamri
Sent: 01/21/2010 08:22 PM EST
To: reagantl at mac.com; yanitski at earthlink.net
Cc: xenophon2010 at readingodyssey.org
Subject: [Xenophon] Conversation with Paul Cartledge regarding Alcibiades

I am in Beijing now and reading this wonderful e mail trail.
i am a first time member of the Reading Odyssey and while I hardly feel up to the level of most of you...I must say that it is wonderful reading your thoughts and also listening to all of you speak on the call.
i have long been out of school and University but this has brought back many fond memories.
By the way - Beijing is just booming and -- in many ways -- it and Shanghai feel more Capitalist than New York these days.
for those of you in NYC I am happy to host something some evening at my place. We could even gather for the next call.
China soon becomes the world's second largest Economy surpassed only by the USA.
Til our next call.
Bill Richards

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Reagan <reagantl at mac.com>
To: James Janicki <yanitski at earthlink.net>
Cc: xenophon2010 at readingodyssey.org
Sent: Thu, Jan 21, 2010 6:16 pm
Subject: Re: [Xenophon] Conversation with Paul Cartledge regarding Alcibiades

I'm not sure I'm really qualified to have an informed opinion about Alcibiades, but ... that never stopped me before! 

Alcibiades is a complex character, with great military and leadership abilities, but his ambition and recklessness were factors in the Athenian defeat.  They were most likely not decisive factors, as the form of Athenian direct democracy at the time was capable of great focus and sacrifice, but was also fickle and inconsistent--far too much so for the situation Athens faced.  As Miltiades and Themistocles faced condemnation and exile after their victories, the jealousy and fear of tyranny by the Athenian citizens were bound to turn against someone of the qualities of Alcibiades.  I can't think of a modern leader whose career is comparable to him.  He would have been fun to know,  but dangerous to follow.  Had Alcibiades had better fortune, could he have turned the tide in the Pelopenesian War?  If anyone could have, maybe it would have been Alcibiades, but I don't think history would have been that different in the end.  In fiction, I'd compare him to Rupert of Hentzau in "The Prisoner of Zenda," an engaging, swashbuckling rogue, an audacious opportunist, courageous but also selfish.  Perhaps he was the perfect personification of an Athenian leader of the period. 

Tim 

On Jan 21, 2010, at 4:48 PM, James Janicki wrote: 

> I feel an Alcibiades debate coming on for our next Xenophon call. 
> 
> I think Alcibiades was uniquely competent as a leader in war and > suffered from too much boustrous candor like Churchill and Patton, > and like Chruchill he was mistrusted and fell to great lows in his > political position.  Also, like Churchill, he was put into the role > he was best suited for to lead the war effort for Athens when they > needed him most.  I think he was totally railroaded in Athens when > his political assasins got the better of him before the Sicily > expedition.  I think he was always loyal to Athens and went to > Sparta only when Athens left him no other choice and until the > corruption at Athens was overcome enough for him to return to the > home he loved.  His battles against Athens were against the corrupt > leaders and never really meant to result in a Spartan victory, so he > was just using Sparta as a platform to clean up Athens for his > return.  He saw his time with Sparta as a type of exile but he was > too large of a character to fade away.  Remember that Thucydides was 
> formally exiled and went to Sparta and we didn't call him a > traitor.  Remember that Alcibiades could have stayed in Athens to > handle the politics instead of ignoring the politics and going to > war in Sicily at the orders of Athens.  This was a personal > sacrifice to Athens, but not the corruption in the leadership at > Athens at that time.  I think this shows his dedication to the State > of Athens and Alcibiades didn't recognize the leadership of Athens > at that time as being the same as Athens itself.  I also think he > was a loud, over-zealous, and agitating personality who annoyed > people easily because he spoke his mind unfiltered, often, and with > an audience.  This reminds me of when Churchill would switch parties > often from Tories to Labour because he was focused on individual > needs that he thought were right for his country and all those needs > weren't always in the same political party.  That's why neither > party trusted Churchill for most of his political career.  I don't > think 
> Alcibiades was lovable and I think we would have a hard time feeling > sorry for his tribulations because they were self induced to a large > extent.  He lived large.  I think we would have a much different > view of Alcibiades if he had survived long enough to write his > memoirs, much like Churchill did.  Also, Athens would have done much > better if Alcibiades had been given more time to prosecute the war > effort.  I think Athens would have given him more time to lead the > war effort of Alcibiades had controlled his big mouth, much like > what happened with Patton with his comments about the Russians, > which made him politically unpopular for any cooperative command > across the Allies in WW2. 
> 
> Jim 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: Phil Terry <pterry at creativegood.com> 
>> Sent: Jan 21, 2010 1:27 PM 
>> To: "Alexander J. Wei" <alexanderjwei at earthlink.net> 
>> Cc: xenophon2010 at readingodyssey.org 
>> Subject: Re: [Xenophon] Conversation with Paul Cartledge regarding >> Alcibiades 
>> 
>> Alexander, 
>> 
>> Quite right - the controversy continues. I did ask Bob the same 
>> question and he had a similar answer to Paul. 
>> 
>> Phil 
>> 
>> On Jan 20, 2010, at 11:48 AM, Alexander J. Wei wrote: 
>> 
>>> Dear Phil: 
>>> 
>>> Thank you so much for sharing your conversation about Alcibiades.  I 
>>> believe we touched on him in our talk with Bob Strassler as well.  I 
>>> even remember first hearing about him from a Social Studies teacher 
>>> in middle school.  I doubt controversy over him will ever die. 
>>> 
>>> Alex 
>>> -----Original Message----- 
>>>> From: Phil Terry <pterry at creativegood.com> 
>>>> Sent: Jan 19, 2010 6:15 PM 
>>>> To: xenophon2010 at readingodyssey.org 
>>>> Subject: [Xenophon] Conversation with Paul Cartledge regarding 
>>>> Alcibiades 
>>>> 
>>>> Hey folks, 
>>>> 
>>>> I thought you would find this recent conversation I had with 
>>>> Professor 
>>>> Paul Cartledge interesting. Paul is the A.G. Leventis Chair of 
>>>> Ancient 
>>>> Greek Culture at Cambridge and one of the most well-respected 
>>>> classcists in the world. He's also a board member of the Reading 
>>>> Odyssey. 
>>>> 
>>>> I decided to ask Paul about Alcibiades and the difference between >>>> the 
>>>> way Thucydides portrays him and the way David Thomas, the writer of 
>>>> the Introduction to our edition of Xenophon's Hellenika, describes 
>>>> him. 
>>>> 
>>>> Some of Paul's answers require knowledge of the Athenian Wars (or >>>> the 
>>>> Peloponnesian Wars as the Athenians called them). But, the basic >>>> gist 
>>>> is understandable whether you have read Thucydides or not. Please 
>>>> keep 
>>>> this exchange confidential. 
>>>> 
>>>> -- -- -- 
>>>> 
>>>> Phil: What's your opinion of Alcibiades? David Thomas seems to >>>> take a 
>>>> much friendlier attitude towards Alcibiades in his introduction to 
>>>> Xenophon's Hellenika. His perspective seems quite a contrast to 
>>>> Thucydides' point-of-view on him. 
>>>> 
>>>> Prof Cartledge: I'm with Thucydides - who at one point virtually 
>>>> blames him altogether for leading Athens to defeat against Sparta, 
>>>> but 
>>>> at another point does say that - for once - he did do at least 
>>>> something good for Athens (in 411 when he persuaded the Athenian 
>>>> fleet 
>>>> NOT to sail back from Samos to Athens to resist the anti-democratic 
>>>> coup[1])! 
>>>> 
>>>> Phil: Why do you think David suggests Alcibiades' expulsion from 
>>>> Syracuse is the main reason for the defeat of that ill-planned 
>>>> expedition? 
>>>> 
>>>> Prof Cartledge: Alcibiades was the most gifted general of his day - 
>>>> BUT his posturing on Syracuse was ill-informed and excessive and 
>>>> self- 
>>>> promoting, and though Nicias was unduly cautious, he was right to >>>> be 
>>>> cautious, whereas Alcibiades in 416/5 had talked gaily of - after 
>>>> conquering Sicily (all of it) - going on to conquer 
>>>> Carthage...Hyberbole! It was party politics that got him recalled 
>>>> from 
>>>> Sicily but i. victory there was by no means certain even so and ii. 
>>>> even a false accustaion does not justify outright treason (going >>>> over 
>>>> to Sparta)! P 
>>>> 
>>>> -- -- -- 
>>>> 
>>>> Hope you are enjoying your reading of Xenophon's Hellenika. Send 
>>>> questions or thoughts out over e-mail! 
>>>> 
>>>> Best, 
>>>> 
>>>> Phil 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> [1] When Paul refers positively to Alcibiades' role in preventing >>>> the 
>>>> fleet from sailing back to Athens to support the coup against the 
>>>> anti- 
>>>> democrats, he's saying so *not* because he (paul) supports the 
>>>> oligarchs but because that rash move would have left the Hellespont 
>>>> completely open to the Spartans and been quite a mistake in the >>>> war - 
>>>> it would have really hurt Athens to have done that no matter who >>>> was 
>>>> in charge back at home. 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________ 
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
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